Tim: Mom, when we were talking the other day, I did the math on, Colleen was born in 59. Brian was born in 44. That's 15 years. Right. It's really because he was December, she was July. It's 14 and a half. That's that's the same amount as between Megan and Keenan. 69 to 7... to 84. Fifteen.  

Mom: But why are you concerned about  

Tim: No, I just was.

I thought that your space between first and last was longer than my space between first and last, but it wasn't.  

Mom: I lost a baby in there, Gerald.  

Tim: In the fifties, yeah. Were you, did you go back to work right after Colleen was born? Yes. You remember?  

Mom: Sue Ann Ross took care of her. Remember Sue Ann? Dad, Dave lived over here.

Yeah,  

Tim: they owned the house.  

Mom: No, they lived in the upstairs apartment.  

Tim: Oh, that's right. They didn't know it, did they? So, would she, would you take her Collen there in the morning, or did Sue Ann come here? I don't,  

Mom: I think I took care of her in the morning, got her to school, and then...  

Tim: Were you, were you working at the county clerk's office in 59?

Uh huh. 79... Yeah, because...  

Mom: No, because it didn't start until the 60s,  

Tim: did they? That's what I thought. Yeah. Maybe you were working at the drugstore.  

Mom: And I couldn't work when I was pregnant.  

Tim: Well, you could up until 60s. Nobody used to. Really? No. In the late 50s? You mean you got pregnant as soon as it was showing you didn't work?

I know you mentioned that about Stauffer Chemical. But at a drugstore or something?  

Mom: I don't know. I had my hands full at home. I didn't need to work. Yeah, I don't... Dad had the restaurant. It was turmoil.  

Tim: Was it? Oh, yes. Well, did the kids make, cause the turmoil? No. Just the number... Our lifestyle.  

Mom: Really? I'd get called in when the buses from Canada would stop because everything came across the Lewiston Bridge down here.

Tim: Yeah. What did you do when you got called into the restaurant? Waitress. Did you? Were you good at it?  

Mom: I would guess. I wore a white uniform. Really?  

Tim: Who was cooking? Ethel Zolmont? And Dad. Did he cook back then?  

Mom: Oh God, yes. There's a picture of him someplace with a big spaghetti.  

Tim: Hmm.

What, what, what caused the closure of that restaurant? The winter? Just people not coming in the winter?  

Mom: First of all, we lost Gerald. And your father would I can't remember, he walked out the back door and he said, I'm quitting the restaurant. He was so upset.

Tim: Over the baby dying? Yes. I don't see the connection there.

Uh. He didn't want to see people?

Mom: I don't know, I didn't read his mind. No. But I remember him saying that. So when was Gerald born? Fifty four. Five. And that's when Dad quit the restaurant.  

Tim: Is that what, he went to the dairy then? Uh huh. He was about 35 years old, 34 years old, right? He hadn't had a career really.

He was pretty young to be running the restaurant. I mean...  

Mom: He never did find his spot in life.

Tim: I always thought he sort of liked the plant though, working at the plant. I guess not. You remember he went to school in Syracuse and learned the, yeah, wastewater treatment plant, yeah. Maybe it was too solitary. I don't know. But he, so he walked out of the door, was it like the day the baby died or shortly after?

Mom: Probably, and he probably went to work. And the baby, it was about six o'clock in the morning when I found him.  

Tim: Mm hmm. Yeah, well I remember I was telling you the other day, I remember Dad driving. on Onondaga Street heading, heading west. As fast as a car could go, is my memory. I must have been, was it 55 or 54?

Five. So I was seven or eight.

But, so he, how long after that did he close the restaurant? Do you remember, was, were Carreres the landlord? Did they own the building?  

Mom: No, Italian guy from Niagara Falls, who used to operate it.  

Tim: Oh, before Dad? Yes. Oh, I didn't know that.  

Mom: Then we took it over. He did. Oh, I can't think right now, Tim. There was an Italian...

Tim: Not Caggiano. No. No. Did someone take it over right after that and run it?  

Mom: Vye Vandenbosch. She did? Yes. I didn't know that. Yes. She was Cook and dishwasher. Everything.  

Tim: She was a force of nature. I compare her with someone like Betty, Betty Bradshaw. Oh yeah. Were they friends? Probably. She was the mother of Victor and Paul and...

Mom: And nine kids, I think. Really?  

Tim: Vandenbosch, yeah. Was Janine a Vandenbosch?  

Mom: Yeah, she's the youngest. Remember Norma Harvey? She was the eldest.  

Tim: Yeah, Dennis Harvey. She was married to Dennis, or was she Dennis Harvey's mother? Yes. Dennis mother. Yeah, I remember her. They lived in Model City. Uh huh. Were the Doherty's, uh, was Joan Doherty a Vandenbosch?

Yes. And was, was Dorothy Napier a Vandenbosch? Yes. Gee, they really populated this village, didn't they? Uh huh. Those boys were, were... Larry. Larry.  

Mom: He's still alive. Yeah. And Al's.  

Tim: He's not alive. No. He was a policeman. He would be the eldest. Was he? I think he was a boy. Twick. Remember the one named Twick? Oh yeah.

He was a, he was probably a contemporary of that Bucky Martin. You know, kind of like tough guys. Twick. I did some legal work for Twick. I forgot what it was. I think a disability claim. But, uh, did they have a horse down there at their house?

Mom: I think so. Cause, uh, Vic Vanderbosch was a sheriff's deputy, and he rode a horse.

Oh. He rode horses back then.

Tim: Oh, so it might have been a county horse, not his own. I delivered their paper. I remember they had a stable in the back. Do you remember, do you wonder, how did the, when did people start being called river rats? They weren't really river rats because they lived on the west side, yeah, on the east side of fourth Street, but Murdochs were.

Pipers. Yeah. I don't know who else was, uh. Then there were people there that weren't River Rats. Like, was there a family named Swick? They ran something in the city market. Red Zeke. Zeke. Oh, that was right up here. What was? He had a market on Portage Road. In Lewiston? Yeah. Oh, I thought he had something in the city market in Niagara Falls.

Red Zeke.  

Mom: Who the hell was his girlfriend? He used to talk about her coming to visit him in the back room.  

Tim: He had a wife down on First Street. He wasn't too good to her. How'd you know that gossip? From Dad?

Mom: It's from Lewiston. Everybody knows your business.  

Tim: They try to know it. If they don't know it, they make it up sometimes, right?

Those Bradshaws were something. You know, the kid who coaches, uh, Lew-port Basketball. Milt's son. Milt's son. Matthew. He told me that he's named after Matthew Toohey. Probably. I don't know if Dad was his godfather. You think he was? No. He's a real nice guy. Great coach for that basketball team. He just, he was also coaching the football team, but he quit doing that.

This is his, was his last year. Good guy. But, uh, Is, uh, Gail, his sister, the girl married to Jimmy Walker?  

Mom: She was married to Bradshaw Milt.  

Tim: Oh, she was married to Milt before she was married to Jimmy? Okay, so she's not Matt's sister, she'd be, I see. I didn't realize that. I never see her around anymore. Oh, they're old.

Are they? Yeah. Jim Walker's got that crooked neck. Bent over, I don't know what he, must have had an injury.  

Mom: The other time I saw him when I was doing rehab over here, they came in every day and worked on the machines. The two of them?  

Tim: Yes. Really? Was his father, uh, Norm Walker. Norm?  

Mom: Highway Superintendent.

Tim: You sure it was Norm? A cow. Wasn't it Harley? Harley Walker? Wasn't there a gentleman named Harley Walker?  

Mom: Yeah, but that. Not that guy? Norm Walker lives right up here.  

Tim: On Ridge Street? Yes. I didn't know that.

It's funny that river rat thing, like remember Dimpy Piper and Curly?

Mom: Then they moved up out to Fifth Street. They did? Yeah, they lived right down here.

Tim: Oh, only the one, the waiter, Russell. Did he, did they live with him?  

Mom: No, he, he he stills up by the  

Tim: river. Russell is?  

Mom: Because Pat Cassic, the good hearted soul she is, and sometimes, uh, puts the meals together and has her son deliver it.

Tim: To Russell? Yes. Was he disabled or something?

Mom: No, I don't think so. He lives alone.  

Tim: Yeah. He's a different sort of guy. He's a good waiter. He worked at Carmello's and... Donna Felicia's, I think he worked in Niagara Falls for a while at restaurants. I hope he saved some money. Probably gets Social Security. I didn't know, didn't he used to live on 5th Street, or was it?

Mom: I don't think so.

Gene, the sister, and the two boys lived here, I think.  

Tim: Brothers of his? Uh huh. Hmm. Is Chucky Piper one of his brothers? Probably. So is Dimpy one of his brothers, or uncle? You gotta get these family trees right.  

Mom: They're not my family.

Tim: Well, so yeah, you weren't working when Colleen was born. You were a mom, a housewife. But then... Most of my life. But did then Sue Ann start taking care of Colleen? Yes. So that you must, the only purpose of that would have been for you to go to work. Right. But it wasn't at... It had to be in the 60s. Yeah, but the county clerk, you didn't start until about...

March of 64. Okay, so Colleen was 4, gonna be 5 in, uh, in July. That's a full time job, so you had to have somebody... Right. babysit.

So... You had a kid, a child in college and a child in kindergarten. Right? Yeah. Brian was in his, uh, second or third year of college in 64. Colleen's probably in kindergarten. How about that? Spread them out. Well, he was, he was 20. She was, uh, 5. Yeah. It's fascinating. Fascinating.