Tim: So, Mom, uh, I was talking to Vivian, and she asked me about, she really probes, you know, and asks questions, family questions. I had to list the names of my brothers and my sisters, and I told her about Gerald. And she said, how did that happen? I said, she knows what SIDS is, you know, that's Sudden Infant Death.

Would you say that's what Gerald can Was there ever a like, what did his birth certificate, his death certificate say, do you know? I don't know. Cause of death? It had to be that crib death, right? Yes. Where was he sleeping when that happened?  

Mom: Right by my bed, beside me in the little cradle.  

Tim: Really? Yeah. He wasn't in a different room?

No. What was that, right here?  

Mom: No, it was upstairs in that little room where the twin beds are. That's where Dad and I slept.  

Tim: No, you slept in the front. No, no, you didn't, did you? No. What year was that? Nineteen. Kevin was born in fifty three. Fifty five. Two years after Kevin?  

Mom: Let me see. No, it was two because we went to California and I was, came back and said Dad had given me a going away gift.

I was pregnant.  

Tim: Came back pregnant? That was after? That was  

Mom: August of, of fifty two. And, and, Gerald was born in 53.

Tim: No, Kevin's 53, Mom. He just had his birthday. Well,  

Mom: Kevin was born then. So then Gerald was 55.  

Tim: 55. So I was, I was 8 years old. Because I, you know, my memory of that is being at Jimmy McConnell's house in a tent in the backyard.

And hearin Dad drive toward 4th Street as fast as could be. I don't know if it was a noisy car or if it was just because he had it floored. He must have been goin to Dr. Alderman's house.  

Mom: No, Dr. Selzer. He took our baby at 6 o'clock in the morning and ran to Dr. Selzer's  

with him.

Tim: Why did I hear a car? I thought I saw Maybe he  

Mom: was goin to a funeral parlor?

Tim: No, no, this was Early in the morning. I see my memory is bad of it. I, I swear, I thought he went to Alderman. No. He left the house with a baby in his arms and  

Mom: Yes, ran with him over to Dr. Selzer.  

Tim: Woke him up, where was he, did you call him?  

Mom: No, probably pounded on the door.  

Tim: So, you don't mind talking about it, do you?

No. So the baby was in a little bassinet type thing.  

Mom: Yeah. And, he was, he was a beautiful baby, but he was very white right from the get go. And I often wondered if he had something more than just a crib death. But those days  

Tim: No autopsy or anything? No. Was he, was he fussy for those first few days?  

Mom: I don't think so.

Tim: Were you breastfeeding him?

Mom: Oh, God, no. I never breastfed any of them. That much. Any of them? Any of us? Not any of  

Tim: you. I didn't know that. So, I'm sorry, did you wake up and, did you hear anything or just see a

Mom: I'm sure I did. Uh huh. Or I thought it was hard to feed them or something. Hmm.  

Tim: That's less prevalent now, you know, because of baby monitors and other things.

Mom: Oh, my mother said, uh, condolences and stuff. And before she had read and heard about it as a cause of death, this crib.  

Tim: Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, SIDS. I see, was there some kind of a funeral service or anything?  

Mom: Yes, in Grandma Toohey's living room. His crib.  

Tim: His crib, or what? He actually had a coffin, a baby coffin?

Mom: It was a baby coffin. And That had to be painful. Just us, you know, just the family.  

Tim: But I imagine Maloney's and Uncle Pat and Aunt Ethel. Oh, yeah. The central family, because I don't remember that at all. I was 8 years old. You'd think I'd remember it. I think I'm a, I have some brain cells that are missing that I  

Mom: Maybe you didn't even go to it.

I don't remember.  

Tim: But you didn't have viewing, like family, friends and No. Just the family. You have an open casket? Was it open?  

Mom: Oh, I think so. Really? Because all I remember is Pretty little blue romper, I guess we called him, you put on the baby. Yeah,  

Tim: like a little white top or something, I imagine. Well, there had to be a priest.

Mom: Well, I remember Father Campbell came here. This was our living room. Yeah. And he came and talked to us here.  

Tim: Was he helpful? Was he comforting?  

Mom: Somewhat. The other thing, I think I asked if the baby had been baptized, and he said, oh, immediately in the hospital. So that was all set. Oh,  

Tim: I didn't know they did that.

Really?  

Mom: Catholics, I  

Tim: guess. Oh. Born at St. Mary's? Yes. Oh. That's good. I, I, okay, see, I don't, I'm wondering if Brian has more clear memories of that. My memory is that one event, and I must be wrong because I saw Dad, heard him, saw him driving west on Onondaga Street toward 4th Street.  

Mom: Maybe he was going for a beer.

I don't know.  

Tim: No, it was very early in the morning. It's very early in the morning. I've always thought he had the baby in the car with him. No. What was the baby's middle name?  

Gerald Matthew.  

Was it Matthew?  

Mom: Oh. Hmm.  

Tim: I also always thought I get my dates confused as to whether Kevin was like a rebound baby where you lost a baby and you had another, but it wasn't.

Colleen was, five years, four years  

Mom: later. Big rebound.

Tim: Well, I didn't know the baby was in the same room with you.  

Mom: I can't imagine how we slept in there. Cause we only had that one bedroom set. That had to be in there, for Dad and I.  

Tim: There was no bathroom up there. That's where you had to walk through Maureen's room to get to the boys room. Right. That was the oddest, that was the real thing that makes you realize this was a barn.

A barn. Had to walk through one bedroom to get to another. Told you the story one time about Jack Hackett who had a When he was an assistant district attorney, he tried a case where a guy came, a farmer, a guy got stranded and a farmer said he could stay over at his house. He said, there's an extra bed upstairs, go up and walk through the one room, just like this.

And he was walking through and there was a young woman in the bed, whose husband was away, either in the service or something, and she thought it was him coming home. Pulled him down and he got in bed with her and played her husband for 45 minutes and then she realized something and they charged the guy with Statutory, not statutory rape, but I forgot what Jack said the outcome was, but it was remind me that same configuration upstairs had to walk through.

But, so there was no bathroom. Was that little cupboard that's in the hallway up there? No, that was all,  

Mom: that was a big wide...

Tim: That was all part of the bedroom.  

Mom: The hallway, the hallway went through the stairs. To the  

Tim: front room, to this room. But it wasn't a hallway, was it? I thought you had to literally walk through Maureen's bedroom to get to the boys room.

Mom: You did. Okay. But there was a space. Yeah, but Like a top of the stairs space. So you could walk from our room across to the side room where the bathroom is.  

Tim: But there was no bathroom.  

Mom: Right. When we first was there, you would, you and Brian were in there with Cribs.  

Tim: In the big room up ahead? The first one.

Oh, the little one. Yeah.  

Mom: across where the bathroom is and you were one of these when you bang your head you know and you bang it so and it moves the crib sometimes you'd get in front of the door we'd have to push to get the door open.

Tim: I blocked the door? Yes. I should have been the second Toohey from this block to go in the psychiatric center for a real good life.

Jeez. You know, I still got the ridge in my head. I must have been out of my mind. Why would I do that?  

Mom: It was how you put yourself to sleep, I think.  

Tim: Yeah, I know. Gee. Lucky I can see and speak. Just made you tough. Yeah, I hope so. Huh, I never knew that I blocked the door by moving the crib. God.

I remember, at one time, well probably from 53 until 59. From when Kevin was born until Until the house got remodeled. So that's six. All four. All four. Two bunk beds. Two bunk beds we were in there, yeah. I remember that.  

Mom: They were pain in the ass to make or do.  

Tim: They had a little ladder on the side though.

Yes. To get up, I remember. Yeah, they would be hard to make, wouldn't they, with that ladder and all. Who made them? You? Probably me.

But it was never hot or cold up there. It was perfectly okay. No complaints.

So after, after, uh, Colleen was born, the upstairs would, uh, Brian and I moved into that bedroom into what's your bedroom now. Right. You moved into the front, front room, where'd everybody else stay?  

Mom: This was a bedroom. Dad and I moved into this bedroom. Oh, okay. As it was, still, when my mother lived here for six months, she lived in this room.

Tim: Where'd you live?  

Mom: On the living room floor.  

Tim: Did you have a mattress or something? Yes. Oh, I forgot. Yeah. This isn't a bad place for a bedroom, except you had to walk through the dining room and the kitchen to go to the bathroom. Right. So, Brian and I were in that room, and that left two bedrooms upstairs.

Two boys in one, two girls in another. Okay, I get it.

Well, that's bad. I got that. I got the Gerald discussion. I wanted to talk to you about that. You didn't mind, did you? No.